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Dear Anti-vaxxer: This is why I still do not care for you.

December 9, 2013

Hi Reader,

A while ago I wrote a post entitled, “Dear Anti-vaxxer: This is why I do not care for you”. It is coming up on two years since I wrote it, and I’d hoped that things would change in that time, but for the most part they have not–with one exception. The online presence of people who are fighting back against the misinformation and lies of the anti-vax movement is increasing daily. Voices for Vaccines is one new group that is organizing around the promotion of science to combat the anti-vax movement. I recommend that you look into their group if you haven’t already. I am not personally involved in this group, by the way, so before any anti-vaxxers reading this start screaming “conspiracy!” you can stick a cork in it already. I am not even sure if they want to be mentioned on this blog, but too late now.

In the meantime, I present my updated version of why I still do not care for anti-vaxxers.

1. You still believe that your opinion should be respected

One of the most common angry responses to my original post was that “all opinions should be respected”. This is bullshit. The people responsible for spreading this fallacy are ruining the next generation. For example, I do not need to respect the opinion of racists, bigots, or people who believe that Uggs are still fashionable, right? This type of attitude is bleeding into classrooms everywhere (though, as you might imagine, not mine).  I must again refer to the Poland and Jacobson quote

Ultimately, society must recognize that science is not a democracy in which the side with the most votes or the loudest voices gets to decide what is right“.

Anti-vaxxers still fail to understand that to have a scientific debate, you must have some science.  The notion that I or anybody else must respect an opinion about a scientific subject, but about which the co-debater has absolutely no knowledge, is beyond ludicrous. Your opinion is dangerous and misinformed. No respect is forthcoming, now or ever.

2. You still think that you know more than 99.99% of the scientific community.

I have to wonder how you get out of bed every day when everyone around you is so stupid and you are so smart. How can you board an aircraft when the aerospace and mechanical engineers who built it do not know as much as you do? Oh yeah, that’s right. For almost every technological advance, you trust the experts. But not for vaccinations–oh, no.  In a phenomenal feat of mental gymnastics, you and your peeps  are still convinced  that the more qualified a person is to talk about vaccination, the less he or she actually knows. You call them arrogant. You call them elitist.  And yet, there can be no greater arrogance than that possessed by one with no degree in any field of biological sciences who still believes that she knows more than 99.99% ofthe healthcare community.  Why have you decided that you are smarter than folks who have dedicated their lives to the science that keeps you from dying of infectious disease? It remains a mystery.

3. Yep, you are still selfish.

One meme circulating widely in the anti-vax community this year said something to the effect of “I am not responsible for the herd. I am only responsible for my children”.  It is downright hilarious that you folks do not realize how selfish and disgusting this viewpoint remains.  First of all, being responsible for your children means you should not be a numbskull and that you should listen to your doctor when it comes to medical advice. Second, the concept that you need to tend only to your little snowflake is a great example of how our society has devolved.  By not vaccinating, you are jeopardizing every person in your community. But you really don’t care about your newborn niece or nephew, do you? I saw a lot of angst being posted online this year ,where anti-vaxxers were not being allowed to visit newborn family members, to which I say: HELL YEAH! You don’t think measles is disease to be concerned with, because you are not very smart, but your sister/aunt/niece/brother does. What is most amazing is your self-victimization when someone calls you out on your anti-vax crap. Here’s a novel idea: why don’t you try listening to their concerns? You are quite happy to parasite away off of the good health of your vaccinated community instead, and you are proud of it. There is something profoundly wrong with that.

4. You are still purposely trying to manipulate others.

Yes Virginia, the news story comment bombing by anti-vaxxers has finally met its match this year. You march right in after a vaccine news piece declaring that you shall educate us, one and all. Sadly, you still don’t have any useful information to share.  You post emotional anecdotes and sketchy “articles” that don’t survive any sort of critical analysis whatsoever. Your strategy is to come in great numbers and make it difficult for any rational person to actually address all of your assorted links to anti-vax websites and articles. You don’t actually want to have a debate. You want to shout so loudly that no one can hear over you. You do not care that your posts are flat-out lies, because they support your worldview that But you’re not. You are, quite simply, WRONG.

5. You wield autism as a club in the most offensive way possible.

This is a tremendously sensitive issue, but one of the things that broke my heart when I wrote this post originally was hearing from parents of autistic children who are outraged that the anti-vax movement uses their children as warnings about vaccines. Yes, I have family members who are on the spectrum. No, vaccines did not cause them to develop autism. This has been shown over and over and over again. So, first of all, any statements warning parents not to vaccine or their child might develop autism is quite simply factually incorrect. Second of all: piss off. Your message seems to be that you would rather have a child who dies than one with autism. So, again: piss off.

6. You are still causing disease outbreaks.

Yeah, I know, you still don’t think measles are dangerous, but you are, as usual, wrong. In addition, the head of the CDC called you out this year for being a responsible party for the measles outbreaks worldwide.  You don’t agree. You are, as usual, wrong. Your contorted attempts to rationalize why anti-vaxxers are not to blame for these outbreaks have been amusing to some degree, but they are yet another example of your inability to think clearly through this issue.

7. You still don’t understand that by spreading the anti-vaccine message, you are endangering your own children.

I understand: You refuse to vaccinate your own children. There is nothing I can say to change your mind about this subject. However, the vaccinated are protecting your children, every day.  You crow about how “healthy” your unvaccinated kids are (though many posts and comments  put the lie to these claims). You do not understand that the reason your unvaccinated child has not gotten a vaccine-preventable disease is because your neighbors did vaccinate. So why are you so insistent about spreading the word to eschew vaccination? You are popping your own protective bubble.

And that, dear anti-vaxxer, is why I still do not care for you.

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  1. Chris permalink

    “people who believe that Uggs are still fashionable, right?”

    Were they ever fashionable?

    One of my “favorite” claims is that “The truth will come out eventually.” Yet, they just keep making stuff up and won’t answer simple questions.

    I remember about ten years ago being told that some big evidence was coming out that definitely proved vaccines caused autism, It turned out to the silly paper from SafeMinds published in Medical Hypothesis called “Autism: A Novel Form of Mercury Poisoning.” They just made it up, and did not understand that they had it completely wrong.

    And another classic was some guy who came on to Respectful Insolence with the ‘nym “Smarter than You” saying:

    Something has been in the making since 2004 that is going to make many dead people roll over in their graves. It will be completed by about October/November 2010, but it may be a little bit after that when you all become very familiar with it. But once you do, you will all finally see where you went wrong, because you most certainly have, and even the worst of the worst of them, such as Paul Offit, will even finally acknowledge just how wrong he was once and for all.

    It has been three years since that guy showed up to give us the big news.

    • Interestingly, phrases like “the truth will come out eventually” are exactly the forms of words used by Obama “birthers”, who believe that the POTUS is Not A Citizen/Born In Kenya/mooslemland/Mars etc. etc. Well, that plus their second favorite mantra “all we need is one honest judge”. I recognize the similarities in the behavioral pathologies, and also their resemblance to the documented behaviors of members of religious cults.

    • “Were they ever fashionable?”

      Lol, an excellent point. Your examples of the anti-vaxxer in action are truly perfect. It really does remind me of what’s happening with HPV vaccination right now. Five years ago it was trendy and vogue-ish for even some epidemiologists to express skepticism about the vaccine; now, not so much. It’s a vaccine that prevents cancer, for Pete’s sake. I blame the backlash almost 100% on Merck’s aggressive advertising when it was released. Just my opinion though.

      • Chris permalink

        Don’t get me started on the HPV stories. I have found that in some cases where the parent claims it was the vaccine, the publicly available documents on the US Court website show other more possible reasons. Like in one case where the young lady had two abnormal EKGs.

        The aggressive marketing had a bit to do with it. Though I also find those that are moralizing it because it is a sexually transmitted disease. Apparently all a young lady has to do is to never have sex until she is properly married, and to never in a situation where she could be raped. Simple, right? Though no one mentions if the husband needs to be tested.

  2. lilady permalink

    I managed to “out” one of those mommies who have come out of the woodwork to defend Dr. Harper and the parents who appeared on Katie Couric’s show.

    This rather Persistent Posting Parent posted a number of comments on Emily Willingham’s Forbes blog about her daughter’s “Gardasil vaccine injuries”, with enough information about her daughter’s purported “vaccine injury” for me to check out what her daughter’s medical history is…which the PPP had posted on SaneVax.

    SaneVax is the gathering place for Persistent Posting Parents who are convinced that their daughters’ vague physical symptoms/emotional problems/fatigue/psychiatric/conversion disorders and actual severe illnesses or deaths, must be associated with teh ebil Gardasil vaccine. There are multiple testimonials from moms and their daughters on SaneVax.

    In spite of Persistent Posting Parent’s quite extensive rendering of her daughter’s medical history on her SaneVax page, the PPP (somehow) managed to omit the collective opinions of treating physicians, that her daughter’s medical problems were NOT Gardasil-vaccine-related. I (gently) reminded the PPP……

    “I heard of a case similar to (redacted) child’s case. IIRC, the physicians diagnosed pyomyocitis…usually caused by Staphylococcus aureus, diagnosed by MRI, treated with IV antibiotics, and definitely NOT associated with a recent history of vaccination:

  3. Thanks so much. You echoed my thoughts precisely. We had a measles outbreak here and under the news headline that all the infected were unvaccinated they still kept trying to comment that it started with vaccinated person. We had all these anti-vaccine conspiracy theorist bombing our site. Going on about greedy doctors. I had to explain we’re Canadian. We have socialized medicine. Vaccines are not usually given by doctors most are done in health clinics by nurses. I outed one (she was semi-local but in a crunchy industry) “I am only here to ask questions” she whined repeatedly but she had linked to whale. I Posted that she was there to manipulate, her “questions” were leading and she only wanted her misinformation to be confirmed that measles was a mild disease. She deleted her previous posts but kept whining how mean I was to out her. She had the gall to say to me she was sorry I had measles encephalitis but that was 40-50 years ago it wouldn’t be the same now. Can I strangle the internet?

    • Sounds like a typical encounter with an anti-vaxxer, I’m sorry to say. They are always the victims when they are called out on their bullshit. Good job in fighting the good fight!

    • lilady permalink

      Well now you have informed me about the Canadian system, Harriet. I just assumed that infants and children (and adults, as well), received their vaccines at the time of “well baby” and “well child” visits, as is done in the United States.

      People who have a private doctor (mainly those who have health insurance), take their kids for periodic visits for check-ups (especially during 0-12 months of age). Public clinics are always a possibility for pediatric care with pediatricians (or Nurse Practitioners) on duty during set clinic hours.

      Some people have crappy private medical insurance and their kids are eligible for VFC vaccine (which is the only source of childhood vaccines in public clinics). Uninsured, underinsured, on Medicaid or qualified for care as American Indian/indigenous heritage meets eligibility requirements for VFC Vaccines. If nurses are on duty at a private practice or a public health clinic, then they administer all the vaccines due.

      I’m glad you like my “outing. Hey, you post about your child’s “vaccine damage”…you’re fair game.

  4. Shaliza permalink

    I seem to have missed this excellent follow up to your previous post on the same subject. But better late, than never, right? ;)

    Bloody brilliant as always, SD!

  5. On The Fence permalink

    I wouldn’t call myself an anti-vaxxer, but I’m still very concerned, and really don’t know what to do with my kid. My son got a vaccine shot at about 2 months, as per his schedule, and he got extremely sick. His fever shot way up to over a hundred. Then at 4 months we took him back and that time it was even worse. I’m not a doctor, but it looks like his body rejected it. The spot where he was injected formed a lump under his skin that was rock hard and about the size of a golf ball, which is huge for an infant. His leg looked rigor mortis, like a corpse and was all discolored. Again he got a really bad fever, but this time it lasted a week and all he did is cry and sleep. I took him to emergency and they didn’t give us any information at all. They had him in there for a few hours under observation and then told us everything was normal and that the lump would eventually go away. I don’t know what they gave him at emergency or what happened. They were just very vague and let us take him home. Now I’m caught between two sides. Do I go get him vaccinated again and risk the chance of an even worse reaction or do I not get him vaccinated? If I do get him another shot, and he died from it, how could I live with myself? Its quite possible that vaccines are safe, just like peanuts are safe, but maybe my son is extremely allergic to something in there.
    I don’t want to get caught up in conspiracy, but to be honest, its not difficult to look at our past and see the huge mistakes that science has made, and the even bigger mistakes the medical field has made. Lobotomies to cure depression, drilling holes in your skull for headaches, mercury to treat aliments, etc.
    I watched this video on youtube, and yes I don’t need to hear all about how youtube is joke. I understand its not a published medical journal, its just a medium for information (good and bad), and ya, at first there’s a bunch of parents on there talking about their kids and how they got sick or developed immunodeficiency disorders, and autism, etc after getting vaccinated, which I felt emotional about, but didn’t give a lot of decision making weight to. BUT.. after watching it to the end, there seemed to be A LOT of scientific and medical professionals in the video giving good solid reasons as to why vaccines are bad. Again, I’m not a doctor, but from a common point perspective, a lot of it made sense. I’d love to have skeweddistribution watch this objectively and in its entirety and then tell me how the researchers, scientist, and medical professionals in the video are wrong.

    When I was a kid, I got the mumps, chicken pox, and measles, and I was pretty sick, but I’m still here and perfectly healthy. At the end of the day I don’t want my kids to catch a disease though, especially one like meningitis or polio. There’s lot of scientific documentation from very intelligent people that say vaccines are safe.
    So what does one do in my case as a parent with a kid that has serious reactions to vaccines?
    At the moment, I haven’t had my son get his 3rd dose of vaccines, and I think I’m going to hold off until his body is more developed. Maybe when he’s like 5 or 6 I’ll revisit this. If vaccines are safe, I’d love to get him vaccinated, but right now I just can’t take the risk of a similar or even worse reaction that he had to the last two.
    I agree with a lot of the things that were said in the post. People get blinders on when it comes to some topics. You can’t even argue with people, cause you present them with some info, and immediately they want to rip your eyes out. That being said, I’m not totally and blindly going to put my faith in science either, as some scientific thought and theories that were once accepted have now been proven false. Not only that, but this is a 20 billion dollar business for pharma companies. If there was nothing to gain, I’d be much less skeptical, but these companies are giants. They have a huge amount of weight and can spend limitless money on funding scientist to produce articles to prove pretty much anything and fund political campaigns, and pay herds of lobbyists.
    Trust is a big thing… especially when it comes to your own kids.

    • Chris permalink

      “When I was a kid, I got the mumps, chicken pox, and measles, and I was pretty sick, but I’m still here and perfectly healthy”

      There is something interesting about those who did not fare well. Take a guess what that might be. Be sure to buy Roald Dahl’s The BFG for your son. Make sure to read who it is dedicated to, and why.

      “At the moment, I haven’t had my son get his 3rd dose of vaccines, and I think I’m going to hold off until his body is more developed.”

      Here is a novel idea: talk to his pediatrician. Your son may have some other condition that requires attention. This is terribly important if vaccines cause problems, other wild infections could be worse.

      Not only are videos not scientific evidence, it is worse when they come from supplement salesmen, especially one whose quality control was so bad he overdosed on his own product:

      • Slam permalink

        I don’t get it. When it’s from supplement salesmen, it’s not okay, but when it’s from pharma representatives, it’s suddenly okay?

        • Chris permalink

          Who is the pharma representative?

          Also which industry is under more regulation? Is it pharmaceuticals that need to meet FDA and other federal regulations, or supplements… which were given a free pass under DSHEA (championed by congress critters who were profiting from big supplement).

          Also real pharmaceuticals actually do things like kill bacteria, allow surgeries with anesthesia and antiseptics, reduce pain, prevent diseases and increase the life span of those born with things like cystic fibrosis, congenital heart disease, cancer and type 1 diabetes. Supplements mostly create very expensive urine.

          Also, a very important thing pharmaceuticals and medical equipment companies do is provide the way to keep those who get measles, tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis, hib, and other diseases alive with antibiotics and artificial ventilation. What supplement is good for pneumonia, a very common side effect of several vaccine preventable diseases like measles?

          Plus, why should we trust Null over someone who has actually earned a real PhD that was not from a diploma mill?

    • Chris permalink

      “Not only that, but this is a 20 billion dollar business for pharma companies.”

      Why would treating diseases instead of preventing them provide less money to pharmaceuticals and hospital supply companies?

      • On The Fence permalink

        Yes, thank you again for the reference to Roald Dahl. I have the book in my kids collection as its fairly popular and I know they’re making a movie about it, but I haven’t looked into the relevance of it with regards to kids vaccines. I’ll have to do some reading I guess. I’m assuming that perhaps Giants are the disease, lurking around to see who they can devour?
        Anyways, my whole point, which it appears you missed again, is that I’m not putting 100% confidence on an opinion just because its “published” by medical science when it comes to my kids health. As noted above, my daughter is vaccinated and I did get my son vaccinated twice, and now that I can’t, I’ve been trying to look at the concerns of anti-vaxxers. I haven’t found any PubMed indexed studies to support anti-vaxxers concerns. We all know it doesn’t exist, otherwise there would be no need for any debate would there? So why would you ask me to present something, knowing full well that doesn’t exist?
        The list of drugs I included in the last post are not kids medication, again… thank you for pointing that out captain obvious. The point of the list, another thing you seemingly missed, is that the FDA has a proven track record of approving drugs that big pharma companies list as “safe and effective” and later prove otherwise and have to be recalled off the shelves. These drugs, in some cases, have been on the shelves for years and even decades, before its discovered that they have horrible and PROVEN side-effects. In order to get these drugs on the shelves, SCIENTISTS at big pharma companies have to perform clinical trials to prove them safe and list all known side effects. So if SCIENTISTS publish material noting that these drugs are “safe and effective” and its proven later otherwise, is it not reasonable to assume that there is a possibility that vaccines, which are currently documented by medical science as “safe and effective”, may later be proven otherwise as well?
        This simple deductive logic, and you don’t need to be a Nobel prize winning scientist to understand it, just some common sense. Just because a scientific study was published indicating vaccines are safe and effective is not reason enough for me to put my blinders on and unequivocally believe it. That kind of thought is inductive reasoning, in my opinion.
        I’m not pulling up any standard anti-vaxx argument, as you noted above, and I’m NOT siding with Null on any issues. If that video, and yes I know it is just a video, was strictly an interview with parents and Mr. Null going off about vaccines, it would be one thing. You keep discrediting this Null guy, but I don’t see a single appearance of him in the video, so exactly how is he relevant to anything? Why do you base the credibility of the information in the video based on Mr. Null? Especially when I’m making it CRYSTAL FUCKING CLEAR that I’m referring to the MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS AND RESEARCHERS in the video? I have yet to hear one person give a reasonable argument or discredit one word of what these people said in the video, and I’m specifically referring to people like Nancy Banks, MD; Lucija Tomljenovic Ph.D – Molecular Biochemist at the University of British Columbia, Toni Bark MD – Founder & Medical Director for the Center for Disease Prevention & Reversal; Tetyana Obukhanych, Ph.D – Immunologist; Suzanne Humphries MD – Nephrologist & Internist; Sherri Tenpenny DO – Osteopathic Doctor; Eva Vanamee PhD – Adjunct Professor at Mt. Sinai Hospital, Structural and Chemical Biology.
        That’s just half the medical professionals in this video, who ALL say vaccines are not safe, nor effective. I don’t want to hear Null’s name again. The whole reason for my initial post, is that I was hoping someone with some intelligence, could watch the video and give a clear rebuttal to what these medical professionals are saying. I AM on the fence, and I’m doing my due diligence as a father to gather all the information available to make a decision. Just like anti-vaxxers say vaccines are bad, all I get on here are people who say “they’re good because its been published that’s good” and that’s simply not enough for me. Especially when the subject is so torn between those who support it and those that are against it. Like I said, if it was just a matter of parents and naturopaths in this video saying that vaccines are not safe, it would be one thing, but its not the case, these are industry leading experts who are not just saying that vaccines are unsafe, but WHY they are unsafe. If there are any medical experts in this forum who are experts in the subject of vaccinations, who can tell me why the other medical experts in this video are wrong, I’d greatly appreciate hearing from them, as I no longer want to hear from idiots like Chris.

        • Chris permalink

          “I’ll have to do some reading I guess. I’m assuming that perhaps Giants are the disease, lurking around to see who they can devour?”

          Absolutely not.

          “The whole reason for my initial post, is that I was hoping someone with some intelligence, could watch the video and give a clear rebuttal to what these medical professionals are saying.”

          Anyone with intelligence would ignore anything said by Gary Null. You’d be better off reading The Panic Virus by Seth Mnookin. Then go to this website run by several medical doctors and other professionals:

          “If there are any medical experts in this forum who are experts in the subject of vaccinations, who can tell me why the other medical experts in this video are wrong, I’d greatly appreciate hearing from them, as I no longer want to hear from idiots like Chris.”

          Even the advice to talk to your child’s pediatrician? Why in the world would you ask strangers on the internet for medical advice?

        • On The Fence permalink

          Again… read my other post fuktard… argh. So annoying when someone makes a comment on something that was already made clear. I HAVE talked to my pediatrician, as noted several times now in previous comments in this same thread. Put your glasses on. And I’m not looking for medical advice. Where did I say I was looking for advice? Please tell me. I said I was looking for a rebuttal to the comments made the medical professionals in the video. Science based medicine is a thuggish blog and is well documented of that. Anyone who doesn’t share their views is automatically involved in pseudoscience or a conspiracy theorist. Anyways, clearly pointless writing this based on your comments, and honestly, I could give shit about what soulful meaning a kids book has on the subject.

        • Chris permalink

          “Where did I say I was looking for advice?”

          Here: “Now I’m caught between two sides. Do I go get him vaccinated again and risk the chance of an even worse reaction or do I not get him vaccinated? If I do get him another shot, and he died from it, how could I live with myself? Its quite possible that vaccines are safe, just like peanuts are safe, but maybe my son is extremely allergic to something in there.”

          Actually, your wall of text prose is actually not terribly clear. You might try using paragraphs, and cohesive thoughts. Perhaps even understanding responses like “Gary Null is a loon and should be ignored!” (link to his entry in the “American Loons” site should have been a big hit)

          Of course you also say silly things like: “Science based medicine is a thuggish blog and is well documented of that. Anyone who doesn’t share their views is automatically involved in pseudoscience or a conspiracy theorist.”

          You are definitely not on any fence, nor someone looking for information. You are just another person who has made up their mind and does not react well when there is no immediate agreement. Trust me, nothing you said was original.

        • Chris permalink

          By the way, it takes quite a bit of gall to expect someone to watch an almost two hour video about vaccines by someone who is unqualified. Here is a more appropriate video, and it is just eight minutes long:

      • On The Fence permalink

        That doesn’t seem like a well thought out question. If (and I say IF) its true and vaccines cause auto immune problems, adhd, severe allergies, or autism spectrum disorder, as suggested in the video link I posted, then not only will kids get a vaccination shot (20 billion in revenue for pharma companies), but they would likely also be on medication for the rest of their lives due to a under developed immune system, or something like ritalin for adhd, carry epipens for their allergies, etc etc. Revenues now shoot through the roof. So yes, there is HUGE motivation to for pharma companies to have a sick society, and literally that’s where we’re at. Again.. I’m not an anti-vaxxer, and my daughter got vaccinated with no apparent issues other than she has a very hard time focusing and staying still, but it would likely be a stretch to say vaccines are to blame for that. My son however, can’t be vaccinated, and I did talk to my pediatrician, and they did allergy tests on him, and they all came back negative except for amoxicillin. He’s considered the top pediatricians in this geographic area, and he suggested to wait until my son was 5, and then at that time, rather than giving him a shot with multiple vaccines in it, to give him a shot with a single vaccine in it at a time, and see how it goes. To me it sounds like Russian roulette, as one or all of those single shots could send him into a critical health state.

        As far as Gary Null vs. Pharma companies, I’m not suggesting to support one over the other, but I don’t even remember seeing Gary Null in that video. I think he just filmed it. The people in the video are what counts, and they do not appear to be simply representing supplement companies. These appear to be medical professionals and researchers that are at the top of their field.

        The other thing people keep mentioning is the FDA… like seriously, is anyone on this post naive enough to the think that FDA approval equals safe? Do you know how many lawsuits there are on FDA approved drugs in this country right now? Many of these lawsuits end with a non-disclosure agreement as well, so you probably don’t even hear of many of them. Look here at the list of the top FDA approved drugs that were recalled and what they did to people.

        The bottom line is that you have to question everything. Even science, which is reportedly non-political has its own problems in that much of the research that is relied upon is done by scientist who are funded by the big pharma companies to say its safe so that they can get FDA approval. Another pressure is cost. The FDA withdrew its approval for Avastin, an advanced drug used for late-stage breast cancer, even though Avastin has had success here and also has the green light in western European countries. Why has it been withdrawn? Because it’s enormously expensive–$88,000 a year. This is the dismal prospect of ObamaCare: Save money, lose lives.

        Based on this thread, and the posts within it, it seems very clear that everyone on this vaccination issue seem to be closed minded on both sides of the fence, and not just the anti-vaxxers. I was pro-vaccination and still am to a degree, but what happened with my son has now got me to look into it more, and there still seems to be a lot of unanswered questions.

        • Chris permalink

          “If (and I say IF) its true and vaccines cause auto immune problems, adhd, severe allergies, or autism spectrum disorder, as suggested in the video link ”

          Please post the PubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers that those conditions are associated with vaccines. As noted before, Null is not reliable.

          “The other thing people keep mentioning is the FDA… like seriously, is anyone on this post naive enough to the think that FDA approval equals safe?”

          Why do you think the FDA is the only government agency over looking drug safety on this planet? There are other countries and in the USA the Vaccine Safety Datalink Program. Again, if you have any evidence that vaccines cause the issues you believe it does then post the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any pediatric vaccine on the American schedule causes more harm than the diseases please present them.

          Since you are going off on some old stale but standard anti-vax arguments, including mention medications that are not given to children I suspect you are not “on the fence.” Therefore you need to actually bring up relevant scientific evidence from those who did not get their “credentials” from a diploma mill.

          And I do hope in the future your son enjoys reading Roald Dahl’s books like The BFG, hopefully you will have learned about who it is dedicated to, and why.

        • Misty permalink

          The research has been done. These vaccines prevent the deaths of children. There is no doubt if you look at the statistical dats and the massive clinical trials involving millions of children. These are not unanswered questions. They have been studied extensively and answered. People just refuse to believe the answers.

          100 years ago one quarter to one third of children died in childhood. The average life expectancy was barely more than half what it is today – which is the highest it’s ever been. And believe me it isn’t because our habits, diet or environment are healthier because they aren’t. It’s because of modern medicine including vaccines.

          What that means is that people that would have been susceptible to dying young are kept alive including those with a naturally weak immune system. Since people are surviving childhood now that wouldn’t have before due to vaccines and other modern scientific advancements, there is no more survival of the fittest which is a good thing in my book because it was a cruel way to live. Baby funerals can’t be a lot of fun and yet they used to happen WAY more often. And in parts of the world where vaccines weren’t readily available even in modern times but now are infant mortality has dropped drastically.

          Let’s put it this way: you can’t be sick if your dead. Kids are surviving now that wouldn’t have so they live to develop or manifest their weakness. I’m sure I am one such person.

          In all the clinical research that been done on MMR the only notable reaction was fever. This means the shot is working building an immunity. But 1 in 4000 had a seizure associates with the fever. (The diseases the vaccines prevent cause a much much higher rate of febrile seizures thou). Now, in those trials (involving well over a million at least) there were no long term affects from the seizures.

          If a child has a fever, there are treatments to reduce fever before it gets that bad. If it is determined that your child genuinely newly needs to avoid the vaccines then you especially really need the rest of us to get vaccinated because a child that can’t handle a vaccine is likely one of the ones that simply couldn’t handle the real diseases.

      • On The Fence permalink

        Looking for advice is not the same as looking for information.

        You know I wouldn’t mind your little ad hominem remarks if they were at all backed up by intelligent remarks, but its not the case here. You display all the characteristics of mainstream society which is a society of sheeple… simpletons who just automatically do what they’re told without question. Well good for you if you want to live your life with your head in the sand. Let me know how that works out for you.

        “By the way, it takes quite a bit of gall to expect someone to watch an almost two hour video about vaccines by someone who is unqualified.”

        Again with the Gary Null… do you masturbate to him at night or something? I’ve never seen a person so fixated on someone. I’ve said over and over again that I’m not concerned with Mr. Null, but with the interviews within his video of prominent medical experts. I say this over and over again, and yet it goes in one ear and out the other.

        To totally discredit everyone in this video (likely without having even watched it) based on the fact that it was produced by Gary Null is just absurd. Its like discrediting Yale University because George Bush graduated there. Like really, give your head a shake.

        You take about producing PubMed studies to show vaccines are unsafe, well in researching the net for several months now I have yet to find any convincing evidence that any vaccine has had a long term double-blind placebo controlled study trial.

        In testimony given at the New York State Assembly on vaccinations, it was said on record that “On the studies that CDC, FDA, and other organizations are using as their evidence of double-blind placebo studies, “You left out the virus part of the vaccine [for the placebo] but you included all the other ingredients including thimerosal and mercury and formaldehyde, etc. Well that’s not a placebo. In good science you don’t use that as a placebo.”

        There are simply too many unanswered questions, and I’m glad that my pediatrician recommended that I hold off until my son is five to get him vaccinated. I have a strong suspicion that during that time, that the answers to the questions and concerns will be truly uncovered.

        “Trust me, nothing you said was original.”

        Trust me, nothing you said was intelligent or thought provoking. All you can tell me is to go read a childrens book, that Gary Null is a loon, and that everyone that even questions vaccines, is an anti-vaxxer. Its too bad you weren’t born several centuries earlier. I can just see you at the head of the Spanish Inquisition yelling “witch witch!!”.

        Maybe you’re right Chris, and maybe Ebola, Lyme’s disease, and AIDS were not man made. Maybe ISIS just appeared out of nowhere with a military arsenal of American looking Humvee’s. Maybe the hydrofluorosilicic acid they dump into our water system is because its good for our teeth, and maybe the Tooth Fairy and Easter Bunny really exist.

        • Stephanie permalink

          A double-blind placebo study??? Are you kidding me? Do you understand exactly what that would mean? Let me break it down for you.

          Scientists round up 1,000 kids.

          Scientists vaccinate 500.

          Scientists inject 500 with a placebo. (I am guessing we won’t see any anti-vaxers signing their kids up for this even though “natural immunity” is supposed to be good for you)

          Scientists expose all 1000 kids to a disease that has can have serious and even deadly side effects.

          Then scientists count which ones survive and which ones had reactions to the vaccines.

          Can you see how that would be just a little but unethical????

        • Chris permalink

          Stephanie, I think I filled out my anti-vaccine BINGO card with “On the Fence.” She also wandered onto using insults as a substitute for evidence. She definitely hit the points in the article starting with “1. You still believe that your opinion should be respected.”

        • Misty permalink

          Sorry but you went full tinfoil hat on that one. You really ripped your hand. Anyone that believes you’re on the fence and just seeking info at this point is just as stupid.

          Here’s a better analogy: why would you believe a documentary about Batman produced by The Joker? Umm because he’s a crazed liar with an agenda?

          As was mentioned we don’t need a double blind study because it is cruel to withhold life-saving treatments from children. But we do have long term clinical studies on these vaccines. And not only that we have statistical data going back almost a century and even in modern day. It’s simple: when there isn’t a vaccination program there are lots of baby funerals. When a vaccine initiative is implemented in an area the baby funerals are reduced. That is in every land island or country.

          What else do you need????

  6. Jason permalink

    The notion that death is preferable to autism is spit in the face of every person living with it. You wonder why people with autism struggle so much? Maybe because the world at large views them as better off dead. As a problem, a plague, a disease in need of curing. Try feeling good about yourself when that is the view point touted so loudly.

    • On The Fence permalink

      Hmm… well I agree to your comment that the notion of death being preferable to autism is highly offensive. That being said, autism, especially those with level 3 of the disorder, is a horrible thing to live with, and your quality of life diminishes to almost nothing. My brothers wife has two brothers that both have level 3 autism, and they can not communicate in any way, have hyper sensitivity to almost everything including taste, smells and light; are afraid to be in public (and not because of the stares or people pointing at them, but because of the confusion of all those people around them which scares them); and they need constant supervision and care because they can’t even perform simple tasks like going to the bathroom. Autism is on a sharp rise right now, with no 1 in 50 people in the USA being within the spectrum. So I disagree with your comment that its not a problem with no need of a cure. Autism is a HUGE problem. Its not a cure or a way to treat the symptoms that we need though. We need to find out what’s causing it to happen. Can we definitively say that its caused by vaccines? Scientists say no apparently, but I’m still not ruling out that they may not play a role in it.

  7. Suzanne M permalink

    This whole debate, both over vaccines and the lovely debate in the comments section could be solved three words: consider the other.

    If someone watch their child have a violent reaction to a vaccine, they do, in fact, have a right to their feelings to be worried. Do we do we hand an open jar off Skippy to someone with a peanut allergy?

    Also legit is the very real fact that vaccines do a lot of disease prevention, and not vaccinating can cause serious widespread health issues.

    People do not all have the same chemistry. Vaccines don’t all look the same world over. Some even have different makeups over time as they improve. Underneath some of the incorrect arguments, everyone has a legit concern. Be nice, and listen to what those actually are. Guess what? They may be more inclined to listen to what you have to say, too.

    • Chris permalink

      “If someone watch their child have a violent reaction to a vaccine, they do, in fact, have a right to their feelings to be worried.”

      “Also legit is the very real fact that vaccines do a lot of disease prevention, and not vaccinating can cause serious widespread health issues”

      What are the relative chances between those two scenarios? So how often do serious complications occur with the MMR vaccine versus measles and/or mumps. The DTaP versus diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis? Either of the two rotavirus vaccines versus rotavirus? And on and on.

      ” Be nice, and listen to what those actually are.”

      Is there a “nice” way to ask for veritable evidence for claims like vaccines causing ADHD, allergies and autism? What is a “nice” way to explain that there is no reason to watch a two hour video by someone who is not qualified in the subject?

      • On The Fence permalink

        What Chris is trying to say is that he’s smarter than anyone else, especially all the doctors in that video… the video he discredits, but didn’t watch because it was produced by someone without proper credentials.

        I wonder if the scientific community discredits people like David Suzuki because his camera man’s not a Nobel prize winning scientist? I mean if the camera man that’s filming David Suzuki doesn’t have the credentials then the film must be bogus right?

        According to Chris, I should just take my son back to the doctors office and get the nurse to give him another vaccine shot, because if I don’t, and I have some concerns based on his last severe reaction to it… well then that makes me an anti-vaxxer. How dare I or anyone question the unquestionable.

        We live today in the sickest society in human history, where being sick and having allergies and immunodeficiency’s is the new norm, but no… nothing like hexafluorosilicic acid in our water or vaccines or GMO’s or anything else we’ve done to pervert nature in the last century have anything to do with that… right? That’s because scientists are our friends and so are the big pharma companies that fund their research. Everything they say is gospel because its written in a journal somewhere.

        Man, I should have gone into science instead of business… I too could have been hailed as an all-powerful God by Chris.

        • Misty permalink

          Your overly sensitive snark aside your argument is invalid. Cameraman =\= producer. And yes it is ridiculous to expect someone to watch a video that long. There is actually no way on earth that the evidence for or against vaccines will be found on YouTube. Why? Because that isn’t how science works. If they referred to some legit science in the video – then present that. But a video of a doctor talking about it isn’t the same thing.

        • Brad permalink

          It’s really not even worth replying to someone like you, and I shouldn’t have to be here justifying the way I feel cause some stupid bitch who thinks she’s a know-it-all doesn’t agree with me. I guess I’m just a glutton for punishment or perhaps I have a free 10 mins now that my kids are in bed.
          The fact is that I AM still somewhat on the fence. Why else would I have got both of my kids vaccinated? If I was an anti-vaxxer, would I have not given my kids their vaccination shot? Let’s put it in the perspective of a parent who loves his kids. My girl, Amelia, was a very alert and focused little baby who was born with her eyes wide open, not crying, but looking around and taking in all the new things around her. She was like that until she got her first vaccination. She got a fever, nothing serious, and we gave her Tylenol, but within hours of getting that shot her eyes started swimming around, she wouldn’t focus on anything. A few months later, we got her second shot, and the same thing happened, but it got worse. She can’t stop fidgeting, she can’t focus and she can’t sit still. With the start of the school year, we are once again in parent teacher meetings explaining that it’s not about her having to go to the washroom, but that she’s been like that since she got her vaccination shots.
          Our son also got his vaccination shot, and on his leg, at the injection site, a golf-ball sized hard lump formed. His temperature shot through the roof and we had to rush him to the hospital. He was so sick that he looked lifeless. His eyes half shut and no energy. We thought we were going to lose him.
          When you have children and you spend every second with them, you know when something affects them, and it’s for me to sit here and say “fuck ya, I agree that vaccines are safe, when both of my kids have had serious reactions like that to them.” My pediatrician, who is one of the most well respected doctors around told us that my son had a serious allergic reaction to the shot, and that he recommends that we wait until he’s a little older and then instead of giving him a HUGE syringe of multiple vaccines, that we give him just a few individual shots for the important ones such as Men-C and see how it goes, and that’s what I plan on doing.
          I asked me doctor if he had his kids vaccinated, and he said hesitated and then said “no”. So for you to sit in there and tell me that I don’t know what I’m talking about, when I lived through it, TWICE, and then tell me I have no right to be sceptical and label me as an anti-vaxxer is downright retarded. Like how fucking stupid are you?
          Secondly, it’s also very difficult for me to sit here and think “ya I believe everything I’m told about vaccines because some scientist said it was safe”. You talk about youtube being biased and not based on facts etc, well of course. I’m not stupid enough to believe everything I hear or read, but there is there’s another side to that coin. I don’t know of any billionaire freelance scientists like Tony Stark who have the millions of dollars to finance research on their own. Who is paying the scientists to research the safety and effectiveness of vaccines? Who do you think it was that designed over the counter cigarettes? Its not just tobacco in there; there’s all sorts of poisons. Scientists working for tobacco companies designed them to be more addictive. These scientists also produced reports that said that smoking tobacco was completely harmless and safe. I could go on for hours and hour with hundreds of examples of scientists that said one thing and were later proven wrong.
          I don’t know if you know anything about the LHC at Cern and the experiments that “scientists” are doing there, but the result of these collisions could cause miniature black holes. These scientists said it would be ok, because Hawkings Radiation would cause the miniature black holes to disappear as fast as they appeared. Now Stephen Hawkings himself is retracting his own theories.
          I’m not going to believe that vaccines are safe because you said so or because some scientist said so. When I have questions, and I watch a video about Merck, and I see some anti-vaxxer guy produced it, well yes, obviously I have to take it with a grain of salt, but when other EXPERTS in that field like the head scientists at UBC, explaining why vaccines are wrong, and they put it in layman’s terms, well it’s hard to just completely fucking ignore it.
          I originally came onto this site for answers, but you pro-vaxxer people are more like a hate group and anyone who dares even question it gets your full wrath.

        • Chris permalink

          “I originally came onto this site for answers, but you pro-vaxxer people are more like a hate group and anyone who dares even question it gets your full wrath.”

          Because it is so hateful to ask for verifiable citations that vaccines cause more harm than the diseases, and to explain that the plural of anecdote is not data.

          By the way, how did your claim with the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program go?

        • Brad permalink

          Aww.. did you get that quote off your favorite nerd shirt? I never made a claim, and never claimed I did.

        • Chris permalink

          You made a claim about GBS and influenza vaccine, therefore you need to provide the evidence to support that claim. Submitting a random review of bias does not answer the question.

          “Why the fuck would I need to add veracity to my story?”

          Because it is an unverified anecdote. The plural of anecdote is not data. How do we know that you are not someone who profits when kids get sick? Hospitals have been downsizing for over twenty years, one big reason is that they don’t have as many kids getting Hib meningitis, nor measles, or rotavirus, or croup (which sent my kid the hospital four times!); so the demand for artificial ventilation equipment has gone down. So are you part of “Big Hospital Supply”?

        • Chris permalink

          I asked because it would have added veracity to your story. I did not know you lived in Canada. Plus you are very wrong on the reasons for the creation of the NVICP, which was assisted by Barbara Loe Fisher.

          I just had a flu vaccine, because the chance of getting Guillain-Barre Syndrome is much with the actual disease. Though if you have data to the contrary, just post the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any influenza vaccine used in North American causes more GBS than influenza.

        • Brad permalink

          I don’t think I’ve ever had a conversation with someone that seemed bright and so stupid at the same time. You come across as one of those nerdy book-smart people, yet you seem to have no common sense whatsoever. Why the fuck would I need to add veracity to my story? Is this supposed to be entertaining that my kids had a horrible reaction to a completely “safe” vaccine? Am I trying to sell a book here? Have I told anyone NOT to get a vaccine, or have I just stated over and over that I have concerns about it?
          You talk about PubMed like its information is irrefutable and the absolute authority on any subject. How can a study funded by a pharmaceutical company produce unbiased results? I just don’t buy it, and that is a huge cause of my concern, and I’m not alone.
          That’s not conspiracy theory or YouTube info. Its “common sense”, something you’re very much lacking of.

        • Brad permalink

          Its time to bring this to a conclusion. The bottom line is that you will never convince me that vaccines are safe, so stop wasting your energy on it. I do agree that they are effective and have significantly lowered the spread of infectious disease.
          As I stated, when my kids are a little older and can hopefully handle it a little better, I will likely get them their shots for more serious diseases like Men-C and other pneumococcal diseases.
          Good luck on your righteous fight against anti-vaxxers.

        • Chris permalink

          From your very long ranty post. I quoted your last paragraph.

          You have described terrible side effects from vaccines in your children, so how did your claim with the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program go?

        • Brad permalink

          and if you could read, you would see that I already answered that question. I did not make a claim with the national vaccine injury compensation program. Can I make it any more clear than that? Is there a reason you keep asking me the same question? I’m not concerned about a hand out, I’m concerned about my kids health and safety. The national vaccine injury compensation program was created on the heels of granting vaccine manufactures like Merck immunity from liability. Canada does not have such a program in place anyways, which is where I live. I really hope the next time you go in for a vaccine that you develop a side effect like Guillain-Barre syndrome, and then you can come back on the forum and everyone can hate on you and tell you how vaccines are perfectly safe and that your paralysis and pain is just a figment of your imagination.

  8. ruthhr permalink

    Popcorn. Need some.

  9. Wow what a shock! A pro vaccine advocate didn’t care for anti vaxxers years ago, and still doesn’t today. And here i was thinking you loved us all and were in complete agreement with us.

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