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8 hospital employees terminated for refusing flu shot

January 2, 2013

Hi Reader,

Today I say hooray for Indianay. Err, I mean Indiana. As you may have heard, a hospital in northern Indiana, IU Goshen Health Hospital, has fired 8 workers, including 6 nurses, who refused to get a flu shot. The expected hand-wringing and constitutional rights wailing from the anti-vaxxers has, of course, commenced. Unfortunately for that crowd, the hospital is well within its rights to fire workers who put their patients at risk.

It is actually frightening to read the comments of a nurse who was terminated. A hospice nurse by the name of Sue Schrock has this to say about influenza vaccine:

“I just feel like it’s a toxin that I don’t want in my body,” she told the  station. “There are side effects with that. There are no guarantees that it’s  even going to protect you.”

While I agree with Sue that there are no guarantees that influenza vaccine is going to protect you, there is also no guarantee that your seatbelt will prevent your death in the event of a car accident. And yet, I’ll bet Nurse Sue dons her seatbelt every single day. And she “feels” that  flu vaccine is a “toxin”?  Since when do “feelings” amount to scientific fact? I wonder where Sue got this information about toxins, anyway. It sure wasn’t from any scientific journal. Regardless, it’s disturbing to hear such gibberish from a nurse, who described her decision as “God-led“. Another nurse, named Joyce Gingerich, apparently agreed with Sue’s assessment and got the axe as well. And yet another terminated nurse, Ethel Hoover, said this about vaccination:

“God Gave us a body. He gave us, He Made our body uniquely that we can–if we live a healthful life—that our chances of being able to fight it off with our own immune system is very likely”.

Interestingly, Hoover is a Mennonite who stated that she is not opposed to all vaccinations, just some of them. So it’s unclear if her thinking about “living a healthful life” would apply to preventing, say, polio or measles.  Regardless, overall  it’s possible that the hospital is better off without nurses who appear to be opposed to modern medicine.

Now, before the anti-vaxxers get their knickers in a twist, understand this. All of these nurses have a right to continue practicing their religions and making God-led decisions, so this is not, as you will undoubtedly contend, religious discrimination. They  can practice their religion freely; what they cannot do is practice it at the expense of the health of their patients or their community.

From → vaccines

  1. You do not have a ‘right’ to your job. If your employer is mandating flu shots and you hold such sincere beliefs, then it’s time to start sending out applications.

    Although, I hope more hospitals and such begin to follow suit and fire folks who refuse to protect those who are most vulnerable to influenza – those who are already ailing and in the hospital. Because let’s face it – none of us book a room at the local hospital because of their fine views and gourmet dining.

  2. jamjewlz permalink

    The nurse is 100% accurate. The public has been brainwashed by the AMA
    to get a flu vaccine. There is no need for a flu vaccine, but there is a financial
    need for pharmaceutical companies and doctors to inject flu vaccines.
    I got a flu vaccine and got the flu 11 years ago. I have not had a flu vaccine for the last 10 years and have not got the flu for the last 10 years.
    There is an infinite number of flu types, and a flu vaccine can’t cover all
    types floating around. Ever heard about the debilitating side effects of the flu vaccine? SCARY!

    • Chris permalink

      Perhaps you can prove your reading and intellectual ability with this little test: Open this pdf document of less than 40 pages. Go to Page 30 and read the table. Tell us what number is to the left of the word “Vaccines”, and tell us what it means.

      Ever heard about the debilitating side effects of the flu vaccine? SCARY!

      Look here: . When I last checked there were at least sixteen deaths of children documented. What you need to do is just give us the title, journal and dates of the PubMed index study that shows the flu vaccine causes that many verified deaths per year. This does not mean finding lawsuits or raw VAERS data, but actual scientific documentation.

      • Shay permalink

        As of this week’s CDC report, Chris, sadly there are eighteen.

    • How much money does the pharmaceutical industry make from flu vaccines vs. tamiflu from people who get the flu vs. antibiotics for people with pneumonia?

      Don’t bother answering. You’re too dumb to be able to give any kind of good answer.

  3. jamjewlz permalink

    The american public is sooo brainwashed.
    No need for flu vaccines!

    • Clearly, because of one example of a time when you found a correlation, not only does that imply causation, but it is true for everyone. OBVIOUSLY. Except that doesn’t make sense in any way, shape, or form, so thanks for playing, you lose, bye bye!

      Based on the way the flu season is going this year, I wish more people were vaccinated. :/

  4. jamjewlz permalink

    GUILLIAN BARRE SYNDROME! Get a clue America!
    I can not believe a nurse was fired for not getting a flu vaccine!

    • Rob RN permalink

      GUILLIAN BARRE SYNDROME IS A RISK? There are only 3000-6000 of GBS cases/year confirmed in the USA (out of the 2010 total population of 308,745,538). Some cases do develop following vaccinations or a bacterial or viral infection but about 60% of the cases occur with NO identifiable cause. The incidence of GBS closely following a vaccination is estimated to be 1-2 per million vaccinations administered. And – it’s always difficult to determine if the vaccination really caused the GBS or if it’s a unrelated random occurrence because about 60% of GBS has no identifiable cause.

      • Shaliza permalink

        I totally agree with your post. Anti-vaxxers are just obsessed with Guillian Barre Syndrome, it seems. I had one mom tell me that she refuses all vaccines for her kids, including the IPV, since polio has certainly not been eradicated, and currently goes by another name, i.e. GBS. I mean where do these nutjobs get this ridiculously inaccurate information? I’ve treated plenty of cases of GBS (not one of them related to vaccines) and have yet to culture any virus, including polio, from the CSF.


    • Chris permalink

      Prove it with real scientifically verified data. This year sixteen children have died from influenza (link a moderated comment), so you need to show the flu vaccine is just as deadly.

      Some caveats: it has to be real data, not lawsuits nor raw VAERS data.

    • Tara Lohman permalink

      At the time of this writing, I am currently recovering from Guillain-Barre Syndrome. I got the flu once, in nursing school, and it was the most miserable illness of my life. To attempt to avoid having this disease again, I got a flu shot every year for the next 22 years, with absolutely no ill effects other than soreness at the injection site and some body aches. This past fall I got a flu shot in September and almost exactly a month later contracted GBS. It might have been the flu shot, it might have been the upper respiratory infection with otitis media I got two weeks after the flu shot. I’ve still got symptoms, I’m still having good days and bad days nearly six months later, and I’ve got medical bills from the hospital stay. But…..I still believe in the flu shot and still recommend it to my family, my friends, and the nursing students I teach. More cases of GBS are caused by flu than by the flu shot, and more people will die of the flu then will ever die of Guillain-Barre Syndrome. However I contracted this weird condition, I assumed the risks willingly and do not regret any of the flu shots I’ve gotten. And what I have is/was certainly NOT polio. What was found in my cerebral-spinal fluid was protein, not a virus to be found. And I’ve been completely vaccinated against polio. When I recently read that anti-vaxxers claim that polio is GBS, I was completely floored at such an idiotic idea.

  5. Ellen permalink

    For those who believe that the nurses should be terminated for not agreeing to get a flu vaccine, what kind of work do you do? I bet the same nurses don’t turn their backs on pts with AIDS or Hepatitis C, they don’t discriminate. If someone told you that shooting heroin would prevent a disease would you do it? Same difference and by the way I am a nurse.

    • Like Reuben, I am an epidemiologist and I also travel internationally. I have had pretty much every vaccine known to mankind. And your analogy to heroin is idiotic, quite honestly.

    • Chemmomo permalink

      I’m sorry Ellen, but your argument that these nurses should be exempt from vaccines because they work with AIDS patients backfires.

      If they are, then it’s all the more important that they reduce their risk of infecting those patients with flu (or any other disease).

    • ambofoam permalink

      I’m an Intensive Care Paramedic. My employer does not require me to have any vaccinations. However, because I am not a raving lunatic and actually care about the at risk patients that I care for, I elect to have the flu shot every year, as well as the usual raft of hepatitis and so on. I also recently got a pertussis booster, paid for out of my own pocket because there is an increase in whooping cough where I work and I frequently come into contact with those too young or too sick to get their own shots.

      Heroin? Really? Skeweddistribution nailed it: idiotic.

    • John McC permalink

      I am nurse. I work in critical care and get the flu vaccine every year, even tho’ i have had influenza only twice in 50 years. I do not wish to be responsible for killing one of my patients by passing on the virus before I become symptomatic with it myself. See this link for details of how a nurse can kill by not getting immunized-

    • Kati permalink

      You are incubating inflenza and can infect others 24 hours before you exhibit any symptoms. Why would a health care professional put their vulnerable patients at such risk?

    • I’m an infectious disease epidemiologist. I’m required to get all sorts of immunizations because I deal with some very deadly pathogens. I get the flu shot every year and I don’t get the flu. So, there, I’ve cancelled your anecdote.

      They were not being discriminated or kept from anything they had a right or a need for. They can go be nurses where their ignorant asses can be hired elsewhere. Good riddance!

      I mean, seriously, if they had hepatitis C and they refused to wear gloves or be careful with needles, would you want them around?

      You’re a nurse? God help your patients.

      • Sullivanthepoop permalink

        I just finished a sabbatical at USAMRIID and had to get 16 vaccinations. If I had refused, which would be insane, they would have said good luck to you and never offered me another one.

        • I could tell you more. I think I wrote about it on the old blog. Basically, they were getting Amerithrax from the FBI during the attacks. Someone was in charge of opening the envelopes. They were in the hot suite, of course, and under a hood. He opened the envelope and nothing came out. He was convinced that there was something in there, but he couldn’t see it in under the hood. So he took off his mask and brought the envelope out of the hot suite, thinking it had nothing “bad” in it. He then flipped it up over his face and a cake of powder came flying at his face. He rushed to the eye wash station and then…

          Well, he proceeded to snort Clorox bleach through each nostril to really clean things up. They had to decontaminate the whole place after that.

          Of course, the wife won’t tell me the man’s name or exactly when this happened. So I can’t give you precise details. But I’m sure he knows who he is… And he’s out there.

        • Oh my…that story is awesome. I am just glad it wasn’t me!

        • Ah, good old USAMRIID. The wife worked there about ten years ago. Someone accidentally snorted Amerithrax, and hilarity ensued.

        • Could you tell us more, or would you have to kill us?

    • Chris permalink

      I am a person with a son who has been hospitalized a few times and do not want him to catch an infectious disease from his medical care givers. And since I have known people who have had cancer and AIDS, I bet they would not be too happy if their medical care givers transmitted influenza to them.

      I also used to work for a company that required drug screening. Do you think that is also too much to ask?

      If someone told you that shooting heroin would prevent a disease would you do it? Same difference and by the way I am a nurse.

      I would request the peer reviewed scientific evidence for such a claim. Just like I am asking for peer reviewed scientific evidence that the flu vaccine kills at least sixteen per year, which is the number of laboratory tested pediatric deaths just this season: .

      If you are a nurse and accept things blindly without looking at the real science, I want you to stay far away me and my family.

    • Sullivanthepoop permalink

      Holy crap! I hope you are lying about being a nurse because that is the most idiotic statement I have ever read.

    • As the others have pointed out, there’s a difference between, “someone telling you something” and what peer reviewed evidence supports.

      You put too much stock in the former and have no damn clue about the latter.

  6. Wendy permalink

    I’m a nurse and I get my flu vax every year. I don’t just do it for me – I do it for patients and colleagues as well. I’m not selfish enough to think that other people can pay for my ignorance.
    Employers most certainly do have a right to expect certain things of their employees. Employment is not a ‘right’, it is an earned privilege.
    Hospitals also have to provide safe environments for employees and patients.
    In short: IT’S NOT ALL ABOUT YOU.
    This ignorance of the accepted science amongst some nurses really irks me.

    • Thanks Wendy, for caring so much about your patients…and about science.

    • Chris permalink


    • Shaliza permalink

      Thanks for your heartfelt post, Wendy. When you’re dealing with so-called enlightened, albeit totally looney medical and nursing professionals like Tenpenny and Ellen, it’s a breath of fresh air to see others like yourself who actually *care* about your patients.

      I’m a Pediatrician, and ever since my freshman year of Medical School have always gotten my annual flu shot. I deal with plenty of preemies, lots of immunocompromised patients (leukemia, JRA, etc) and loads of other high risk patients. Given that I took an oath to do no harm, I take that very seriously and do whatever I can to protect my patients. This includes getting my annual flu shot. For the record, I’ve yet to get deathly ill and be damaged beyond repair as anti-vaxxers like to insist, when it comes to any shot, including the flu shot. ;)

      Personally, if you truly believe that vaccines are poison, and toxins that enter your system, then I highly recommend that these idiots find another job instead of putting anyone at risk. Medicine is clearly not for you, and so please do us all a favor and resign your position and go spout your nonsense elsewhere. I’ve had it with unvaccinated relatives and medical professionals infecting newborns with a severe case of influenza, pertussis, and the like. If you truly care for your patients, and the children, then please do get vaccinated. It is one thing that I have learned after many years in practice, and I hold all my colleagues to the high standards that I hold myself. Your patients come first, and the sooner you learn that, the better.

      • ShrinkyDink permalink

        I’m a psychiatrist, I specialize is the severely mentally ill and the geriatric population.
        I also have a problem with multiple allergy issues and asthma, and I HAVE NEVER, EVER REFUSED A VACCINE.
        Why? Because my patients all have many severe medical problems in addition to their mental illnesses.

        Most of my younger patients have diabetes, kidney diseases, are on dialysis, or live in shelters where they are in high disease transmission environments, or have HIV/AIDs.

        My older patients are at risk because the geriatric immune system is simply weaker, or they are diabetic, on steriods, have had transplants, or otherwise generally ill, or in nursing homes (ie, can get a bunch of other people sick).

        If I pick up a bug, I could potentially sow sickness and devastation amongst hundreds before my first sneeze or runny nose. SO I GET MY FRIGGIN VACCINATIONS.

        Even though I have since developed anaphylaxis to the flu vaccine, I go to my allergists office to get it. It now means every flue season, I have to kill an afternoon to get it, because I have have to got to his office, take a boatload of benadryl before the shot and sit there to be observed a few hours to make sure i dont need epinephrine and an ambulance before a friend drives me home,





  7. lilady permalink

    @ Ellen: I am a registered nurse/epidemiologist, retired from a large County public health department.

    Your knowledge base about infectious diseases transmission and immunology is deplorable and your lack of concern and compassion for vulnerable patients is an abomination.

  8. The flu vaccine does not work…. if it worked why do they suggest booster every year? It does not guarantee 100% protection, and is full of junk (yes, I said junk)…. why injected in your body?

  9. *Sodium Deoxychocolate (water soluble, bile-acid, ionic detergent commonly used in protein methods)

    *Formaldehyle (colorless, flammable, strong-smelling chemical that is used in building materials and to produce many household products.

    *Octocynol-10 (yhis ingredient has been reviewed by the FDA and is approved to use as indirect food additives as components of adhesives, and paper in contact with food)

    *Polysorbate 80 (it is a ubiquitously used solubilizing agent that can cause severe nonimmunologic anaphylactoid reaction.

    *Hydrocortisone (the NSF says is ingested to seek medical attention immediately and that it poses a danger of serious health damage if swallowed; An individual is not swallowing d
    Hydrocortisone when they receive the flu shot, but the chemical is being injected directly into the body so it can be carried throughout the blood stream)

    *Gentamicine Sulfate (Serious adverse effects are nephrotoxicity, impairment of neuromuscular transmissions and hypersensitivity reactions, neuromuscular paralysis have occurred after administration)

    *Ovalbumin (water soluble albumin which is the primary component of the egg white (about 60-65% of total protein)

    Source: CDC
    According to Vaccination Information Service, MERCURY is still also present in trace amounts as a preservative in the flu vaccine. Mercury is the second most poisonous element known to man and studies have shown that neurons begin to disintegrate in its presence.Some of the most serious side effects of mercury are liver disorders, injury to the cardiovascular system, deafness and ataxia.

    Donald Miller, MD, a Cardiac Surgeon and professor of Surgery at the University of Washington, recommends taking vitamin D instead of getting a flu shot. He also says that 70% of doctors do not get the flu shot.

    • Rob RN permalink


      1. Please provide references from reputable sources (not anti-vax web pages or that explain how the miniscule amounts of the substances you cited that MIGHT be found in vaccines are a significant risk.
      2. Please elucidate on the differences between methyl mercury and ethyl mercury.

    • Tika permalink

      Your comments regarding mercury apply to methylmercurynot to ethylmercury which is a component of a preservative used with some vaccines.

    • Okey dokey cafecito. Please provide peer-reviewed scientific references to back up your statements, or go away. It’s your last chance.

    • Oh wait, I just have to stop and point and laugh for a second. “Sodium Deoxychocolate”? Sounds yummy! Where can I get some?

    • Chris permalink

      “Polysorbate 80”

      What do you have against ice cream?


      And also created in your body in greater quantities by cell metabolism.


      I like eating eggs, and to reduce fat I mostly stick to egg whites. Now that is bad?

      Okay, words from a heart surgeon? Seriously? What makes him an infectious disease specialist? News flash: Dr. Miller is mostly retired. One of my kids has been seen by the heart center he is associated with, and he was no where to be found. His credentials are listed only due to tenure. Trust me, the UW Medical Center encourages vaccines. They even offered them to my son before he was discharged (he already had them).

      In the future instead of websites you need to post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies that support your statements. Which is exactly what I want for you to present when you tell us exactly how the families could have prevented the documented deaths from influenza of sixteen children. They were real children, and now they are dead. They are listed on a CDC website.

    • As Chris has pointed out; Dr Miller is not an infectious disease specialist, nor is he particularly qualified to give advice regarding the flu vaccine.

      As for the ingredients: what about them? Not one of them is ‘scary’, if your intent is to cause ‘fear and doubt’ simply because YOU do not understand what they are and what they do.

    • gh970 permalink

      Vitamin D is a good idea in the winter. So is a flu shot. Both have decent records of safety.

  10. Narad permalink

    You do not have a ‘right’ to your job. If your employer is mandating flu shots and you hold such sincere beliefs, then it’s time to start sending out applications.

    This isn’t entirely true. If decent cases had been made for bona fide religious beliefs, reasonable accommodation would have had to be attempted. Jerold Friedman, who refused the mumps vaccine on grounds of ethical veganism, may have succeeded against Kaiser had he gone the federal route rather than sticking with California’s state process.

    The take-away here very well may be that the lawyer involved, Alan Phillips, is about as good at this as Patricia Finn. I’d love to see what he whomped up. Schrock has plainly blown any chance of a discrimination complaint with that “toxins” line.

    • Thanks for the post, Narad. This is interesting. It seems that the key would have to be “bona fide religious beliefs”, which I imagine is a legal nightmare to establish. Arkansas went through this subject in detail when re-writing their vaccine exemption law a few years back. They did a good job there.

    • I did say ‘sincere’ beliefs.

      That leaves out the majority of the rabid anti-vax crowd, who regularly ask, “What religion do I have to claim to get out of vaccinating??”

      Because if you have to go looking for one, chances are you don’t actually believe in it.

      • Narad permalink

        I did say ‘sincere’ beliefs.

        Sure. That’s why I brought up Friedman and, by implication, Bruce Anderson’s EEOC victory over the OCTA.

  11. lilady permalink

    I located an EEOC “opinion letter” about mandatory seasonal influenza vaccine for health care personnel. There is a press release from the hospital about the firings which stated that they did exempt some employees from the flu vaccine because of religious beliefs and that the workers who were fired, did not meet EEOC guidelines for a “religious belief accommodation”.

    “You further inquired whether hospitals may refuse to accommodate an employee’s religious objections to immunizations if, in addition to presenting religious objections to immunizations, the employee submits non-religious, anti-vaccine information. A related matter you have raised is whether a healthcare employee’s receipt of vaccines in the past, in and of itself, relieves an employer of the obligation to accommodate the employee’s present request for religious accommodation. As the Commission has explained:

    Like the “religious” nature of a belief or practice, the “sincerity” of an employee’s stated religious belief is usually not in dispute. Nevertheless, there are some circumstances in which an employer may assert as a defense that it was not required to provide accommodation because the employee’s asserted religious belief was not sincerely held. Factors that – either alone or in combination – might undermine an employee’s assertion that he sincerely holds the religious belief at issue include: whether the employee has behaved in a manner markedly inconsistent with the professed belief; whether the accommodation sought is a particularly desirable benefit that is likely to be sought for secular reasons; whether the timing of the request renders it suspect (e.g., it follows an earlier request by the employee for the same benefit for secular reasons); and whether the employer otherwise has reason to believe the accommodation is not sought for religious reasons. However, none of these factors is dispositive. For example, although prior inconsistent conduct is relevant to the question of sincerity, an individual’s beliefs – or degree of adherence – may change over time, and therefore an employee’s newly adopted or inconsistently observed religious practice may nevertheless be sincerely held. An employer also should not assume that an employee is insincere simply because some of his or her practices deviate from the commonly followed tenets of his or her religion.”

    I am absolutely certain that Goshen Hospital sought a legal opinion from the EEOC before they fired the nurses.

  12. David permalink

    One comment, read Alan Phillips web site, the lawyer representing the nurse. Myth busting about how much safety a vaccine provides for patients. I took the flu shot, but arm swelled up and developed a rash. Another nurse I worked with took the shot and got the flu! We also later found out the hospital received $150 USD PER PERSON taking the shot! And YOUR tax dollars pay, the US govt pays the lawsuits for people harmed by vaccines. NOT THE VACCINE makers. Real cool deal huh? Not responsible for the effects on people, but getting all the $$$$$$$$ benefit from the vaccines they force people to take. You want to keep paying your money to support the pharm companies who are greedy while demonizing a simple nurse with religious beliefs we are brainwashed for sure!
    Let’s see, hospital has
    4000 employees times $150 times annual, yeah, that is pure profit on their part. Read the truth and weep, vaccines do not immunity provide from disease, no matter the brainwashing you have received.

  13. David permalink

    What was America founded upon? The truths we hold to be SELF EVIDENT. Freedom to have and hold your religious beliefs.
    Versus corporate greed.
    It’s up to each and everyone of us to choose. It looks like more and more choose greed. So it’s no longer America. So long USA!

    • Chris permalink

      Actually, if you read the Constitution it only forbids Congress from making laws in regards to religion, not entities like businesses and hospitals.

      As far as Alan Philips goes, I ran across his little “Vaccination Myths” back when we were using a phone modem and he was still a law student. It turns out his relationship with the truth was marginal. At that time I also found this site: The Anti-Immunization Activists: A Pattern of Deception. The first section “Dispelling Vaccination Myths” is all about Mr. Philips list (which still floats around in its original form). The papers he cites do not say what he claims, and it is concluded:

      The author of “Dispelling Vaccine Myths” has NO refereed data to document his obviously false claim that immunization has not led to a reduction in the diseases for which it is administered.

      Please, open this short pdf document, then go to Page 30 and look at the table. Tell us what number is to the left of the word “Vaccines”, plus explain what it means.

      Failure to do that simple task, combined with your failure to understand the Bill of Rights would prove the USA would be better off without you. Please do not let the gate at the border hit you in the fanny.

    • “Freedom to have and hold your religious beliefs.”

      Right. And freedom to be protected from others’ religious beliefs, as well.

    • gh970 permalink

      Religious beliefs of health care providers cannot be allowed to affect patient safety. These fired nurses were being reckless and putting patients who may potentially be compromised at risk. Hospitals are private organizations with a mandate to protect patient safety and were entirely in their right to fire these nurses.

  14. lilady permalink

    According to Faux News the “vaccine exemption” lawyer was hired by three of the nurses before they submitted their requests for a religious exemption. He provided the wording for the exemptions.

    “Because IU Health Goshen Hospital staff had the option under the new policy of filing medical or religious exemptions from the vaccination, Gingerich and three others hired Alan Phillips, an
    attorney in North Carolina, to write their exemption recommendations.”

    I also “Googled” to find Phillips’ website and he’s associated with every crank CAM organization and “alternative practitioners”…including homeopathy.

    • Chris permalink

      My comment went into moderation, but it contains a link showing Mr. Phillips’ “Dispelling Vaccination Myths” was full of lies. He apparently is one originator of the blatant lie that when Japan stopped vaccinating for pertussis for kids under two years old that SIDS went away (actually it didn’t, but babies started to die from pertussis also). The link I included has this to say about Mr. Phillips:

      The anti-immunization activist author goes on with inflammatory, unreferenced stuff. After doing a computer search of the literature back to 1965, I am convinced that some activist simply made up the business about SIDS in Japan. He follows it with rhetoric about the need for a massive study of the whole business, not telling his readers that this has already been performed and that no correlation has been found.

      … and…

      I have spent a lot of time looking for this often-cited Japanese evidence, and have found so little that I must believe that the story originated with the misinterpretation of one person and spread like wildfire (as all the really “good” stories do). The rate of SIDS, I recall, did not change over the time-frame when this vaccination schedule shift occurred… Clearly it is the “vaccination-associated” classification of SIDS that went away; not SIDS itself.

  15. David permalink

    You 2 fellows need to read a copy of the Bill of Rights and Constitution while it’s still available.
    US govt is for war and holding the states together. States make laws governing what is goig on in each individual state.
    We have freedom OF religion given to us by GOD, not legislators. Nowhere does it say freedom FROM religion. Our founding fathers understood that but apparently all of you tolerant people can tolerate anything but truth.
    I was a nurse for 31 years and rarely saw SIDS until we started vaccinating and over vaccinating. That may be anecdotal, but if you can claim Alan Phillips’s data is wrong, how do you know the data you quote is correct? Only people with Your views are brilliant, huh?
    I think not. I was able to work 31 years in an open heart unit because I was intelligent and studied nursing and worked also on hospital committees regarding adverse events and medical liability issues. If anyone thinks that hospitals are altruistic in their approach to patient care, I beg to differ because I was behind the scenes and saw when it went from good to greed.
    I also saw a whole classroom of kids get chicken pox after being vaccinated, there is no real proof that you receive immunity from a needle.
    I believe a wholesome lifestyle, rest, good food and the immune system that our Creator gave us is more than adequate to protect us from disease.
    Vaccines are totally unnecessary. In my opinion, which I am entitled too. I won’t force you to share my beliefs, but you want to jab something in my arm that I don’t want.
    Whose violating whose rights?

    • Chris permalink

      “We have freedom OF religion given to us by GOD, not legislators.”

      By the Hammer of Thor, which god are you referring to?

      I have read the Bill of Rights, it is right here:

      It says:

      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

      The hospital is not Congress, just to clarify it for you.

      That may be anecdotal, but if you can claim Alan Phillips’s data is wrong, how do you know the data you quote is correct? Only people with Your views are brilliant, huh?

      Try actually reading the links I used in my first comment to you. What you do is hover your mouse over the words in blue text, then click the button. I should also give you this paper which explained it quite nicely in its abstract, you can find it in PubMed:
      Expert Rev Vaccines. 2005 Apr;4(2):173-84.
      Acellular pertussis vaccines in Japan: past, present and future.

      Since you have trouble clicking on links I’ll quote it for you:

      An antivaccine movement developed in Japan as a consequence of increasing numbers of adverse reactions to whole-cell pertussis vaccines in the mid-1970s. After two infants died within 24 h of the vaccination from 1974 to 1975, the Japanese government temporarily suspended vaccinations. Subsequently, the public and the government witnessed the re-emergence of whooping cough, with 41 deaths in 1979. This series of unfortunate events revealed to the public that the vaccine had, in fact, been beneficial

      Vaccines are totally unnecessary. In my opinion, which I am entitled too.

      As noted in the comments here, at least eighteen children have died from verified influenza. Please explain how those deaths could have been prevented, with actual evidence that your solution actually works.

      You did not answer my simple question about what number was to the left of the word “Vaccines” in the table I linked to. With your lack of understanding the Bill of Rights, inability to click on links and rather interesting grammar/spelling it would help this country if you would just leave. Now. Please exit the USA quickly.

    • “We have freedom OF religion given to us by GOD, not legislators. Nowhere does it say freedom FROM religion. Our founding fathers understood that but apparently all of you tolerant people can tolerate anything but truth.”

      Actually, the Establishment Clause has been interpreted to mean that the government cannot favor one religion over another. It could be argued that allowing vaccine exemptors to attend public schools violates this clause, because they put everyone else at risk with their “beliefs”. As for the fired nurses, as Chris pointed out, a hospital is not the gubmint.

  16. David permalink

    Yes, it would be nice if everyone left that doesn’t believe like you. Make it real easy for you

  17. David permalink

    The reason most people get hurt in hospitals is because they hire inadequate staff to take care of the patients. Not because a nurse doesn’t take a flu shot.
    Sanitary hand washing and-isolating people with the flu is what works well. We have rooms in hospitals for respiratory illnesses.

    I sat in with lawyers at the risk management and infection control meetings for years.
    Flu shot never mentioned until govt made that a requirement for hospitals to keep their hands in the govt handout money from Medicare.

    My job required me to read all the pub med journals and articles and to research drugs and procedures for their safety and report to the hospital management.
    Nowhere does it say I have to read your articles or click on your links I know how to research drugs.
    I am using an iPad which I am unfamiliar with, so language is a bit stilted.

    That doesn’t make me wrong however, or you right.

    And I don’t know any Thor, or his hammer. But I do know God and He is able to give me wisdom to know right from wrong and to judge what is right or wrong and to discern what is right or wrong.

    The problem is most people wouldn’t know Him if He jumped out and said boo, so therefore they have to use their own reasoning and their junk science to prove their irresponsible and reprehensible actions.

    Again, follow the money and the greed and forcing people against their will and better judegement will tell you the real stinker here is the hospital and big pharma and not these individuals who worked here and took care of people for years without a problem.

    K. It’s simple, in order to gain money, they must force vaccines on people. Greed, not concern for anyone’s welfare. Proof is that flu vaccine was NEVER AN ISSUE until money became the overriding principle.

    If you have any questions, just ask me, I will. K my God and He will gladly give us the answer.

    Thank you!

  18. lilady permalink

    David has yet to prove in the form of links to studies that back up his “theories” about vaccines.

    “I was a nurse for 31 years and rarely saw SIDS until we started vaccinating and over vaccinating. That may be anecdotal, but if you can claim Alan Phillips’s data is wrong, how do you know the data you quote is correct?”

    You bet it is anecdotal. The labeling of unexplained crib deaths as “SIDS” took place at a Seattle conference in 1969. IIRC, the only vaccines that infants received then were DPT, single antigen measles, mumps, rubella vaccines and smallpox vaccine.

    With the addition of newer vaccines (hepatitis A and hepatitis B, varicella, vaccines against invasive bacterial diseases and rotavirus)…why has the rate of SIDS deaths per 1,000 live births been halved?

    “The sharp decrease in SIDS rate in the 1990s coincides with a sharp increase in the rate of supine sleeping, as determined from data collected in the National Infant Sleep Position Study (NISP) [16], which stabilized to ≈72% in the 2000s (Figure 1, blue line with squares). This increase is considered a direct effect of the 1992 recommendation of the American Academy of Pediatrics to avoid babies to sleep in the prone position and the subsequent “Back to Sleep” campaign initiated in 1994, although a low adherence to sleep position recommendations among specific demographic groups, particularly among socioeconomically disadvantaged groups, persists [17–21]. The decrease in SIDS rate upon the increase in supine sleeping illustrates the significantly increased risk of SIDS of prone sleeping, as reviewed in several studies [21–24]. However, one should be careful to attribute all of the decrease in SIDS rates to the effects of the “Back to Sleep” campaign, since there is also a declining trend in diagnosing and reporting infant deaths as SIDS [25–27]”

    The same dramatic decline of SIDS has been reported in other countries as well. The “Back to Sleep” educational program is proof positive that educating parents about supine sleeping, firm mattresses and removal of pillows in cribs has a profound effect in rate of SIDS/ per 1,000 live births. Parents have also been educated on the dangers of “bed-sharing”…especially parents who are in a stupor from ETOH and other drugs.

    “I also saw a whole classroom of kids get chicken pox after being vaccinated, there is no real proof that you receive immunity from a needle.”

    [citation desperately needed]

    He claims to be a nurse, yet lacks basic education in immunology, virology, bacteriology and disease transmission within a hospital setting. Color me unimpressed.

  19. David permalink

    I do understand the Bill of Rights, and it comes from God. And I know Him. So we are good.

    • Chris permalink

      I am so glad the church affiliated with the hospital that performed my son got his open heart surgery has a God that allows using real science, because it also had a mandatory vaccine requirement for its employees.

      I don’t like your God that believes it is okay dokay to not prevent kids from dying with vaccines. That is just pure evil.

  20. David permalink

    The hospital that I retired from 2 years ago had 4000 plus regular employees. Plus another 1000 physician owned offices and their employees. Now they are requiring vendors and even the little old grannies who volunteer in the gift shop to take it as well as students. Chaching chaching add another 1000. Multiply that by $150 USD per person.
    That is three quarter million dollars.
    Coming into the coffers of a hospital that is worried about their bottom line. Do you think they would turn it down?
    Shrinking Medicare reimbursements is on their minds day and night.
    Bottom line, follow the $$$$$$$$$$$
    I laugh at anyone that cannot see the rarity here. Numbers don’t lie.

    • johnmcc16 permalink

      Also if you have been a nurse for 31 years, that means you went through school before the chicken pox vaccine came out. So what does having another vaccine have to do with getting chicken pox? Also, you don’t believe in drugs or medical and nursing care either then David. As you said “I believe a wholesome lifestyle, rest, good food and the immune system that our Creator gave us is more than adequate to protect us from disease” Tell us then why you think the world needs nurses? I think the world needs nurses like me to make up for the fact that your thesis is demonstrably false.

  21. David permalink

    Links to junk scientific studies does not a well educated person make

  22. David permalink

    And if you are are so dissociated from reality to not understand the real reason they are forcing people against their will to take something they think is harmful, then all the knowledge from so called medical science won’t make your argument any more forceful. It only tells me you lack common sense and compassion for REAL people so you have to hide behind junk science.
    Demonizing me, my intelligence, or critical thinking does not make you any brighter or better.
    I worry about some of you people on here and will be praying for you. Ps, I have a degree and studied all the things you throw in my face. But I don’t depend on what someone else thinks or writes to make my own decision. You have NO IDEA if that stuff you quote is correct or not.
    ThE Bble says when the blind follow the blind, they all fall into the ditch. Thank you!

    • Question permalink

      So these nurses think that vaccines are dangerous and useless, and that hospitals are run by evil people who care nothing for people’s health. Shouldn’t they have quit their jobs, rather than whining about being fired? Or are they perfectly happy to be paid to vaccinate other people?

    • Chris permalink

      If everything I posted was junk science, then present the real science, not religion.

      You failed to answer my simple question of just telling me a number next to a word. You failed to understand that the First Amendment pertains to the Federal government, not a hospital. You failed to explain how you can prevent the deaths from influenza of children.

      I actually presented a paper explaining what happened in Japan, plus a doctor’s site that listed the papers and how Phillips lied about them. All you have done is use religion as an excuse, and presented no evidence.

      You claimed you did not want to live here when you said “So long USA!”

      So, please, just leave. Don’t let the gate at the border hit you.

      • Suggestion permalink

        Pakistan might be a good choice. It has all the polio an antivaxxer would want, and a strong proGod stance

    • Don’t forget to tip your server!

  23. David permalink

    I didn’t say I didn’t want to live here. I simply said this is not the America our forefathers intended.
    Also, I noticed many comments are simply demonizing people who make them, the nurses who were fired without actually understanding what the person is intending to communicate. I guess if you cannot force them to think the way you think then you slam them. That is real kind of you , NOT.
    Let me make this real simple for you. I do not hide behind religion. My GOD is a big GOD and He’s real. He’s my best friend.
    I believe you have a god as well. He is science. I want to explain that this god cannot help you love people, cannot help you understand the world and will not save you in the end.
    This god is NOT able to help you understand your world or the people in it. That is why you are always people bashers. Your anger is a symptom of hanging out with the wrong GOD.
    Get on board the train, it is heading somewhere.
    Don’t be left at the station. Be glad to explain who the real God is and why He loves all of us.
    Despite our failures to love each other.

    • “I simply said this is not the America our forefathers intended.”

      Funny how this argument is taken up by the anti-vaxxers but not the pro-gun people, who are very often the same.

    • gh970 permalink

      That religion vs. science argument presents an oversimplified, false dichotomy.

      Science, being based in data, evidence, experience and experimentation, seems far better a long-term solution to the world’s problems than religion, which has cured exactly zero (0) diseases.

  24. David permalink

    Chris, real science is located in the Word of God. He created the world and explains it perfectly in the Bible. I have an advanced degree in reading and understanding it that I obtained from the author.
    Your religion is going to let you down man, I pray for you.

    • Chris permalink

      You God likes to have people die painful preventable deaths. That is evil.

      • Freedom of religion permalink

        Now that’s unfair Chris – Muslims have a perfect right to dislike vaccines, even though that is rather a foreign concept to Christians who have always supported vaccines. Remember, the Founding Fathers said that the United States is not a Christian nation (, so David has a perfect right to be a citizen and a non-Christian at the same time.

    • Jake permalink

      God isn’t real, you silly child.

  25. David permalink

    And Chris the first amendment pertains to WE THE PEOPLE not the govt Written by and for US.
    You are the one who doesnt understand it.
    It is written for our protection against government. Overbearing, taking away rights, Its for US.

  26. David permalink

    Chris, I promise you He is not evil. He is the most loving person in the world. He has love that we cannot fathom because we have never experienced it. But I have experienced Him and felt that love. Believe me when I say He does not want anyone to die. .

    • Chris permalink

      Then explain why your God disapproves of a vaccine that could have prevented the eighteen pediatric deaths this season?

      • gh970 permalink

        …and countless other preventable or tragic deaths that are certainly not prevented by religion or prayer, but COULD be prevented by medicine and science. Vaccines have essentially wiped out polio cases in the US, but not all countries are so lucky.

  27. David permalink

    Please do not confuse God with the god/gods that are evil. There is a real God and you can known Him personally. He protects and cares for people, never harms them. And He doesn’t force His people, He is a gentleman and He only does what is right. Get to know Him in His Word and things will start to make sense.
    I know Him, He is not evil.
    He is a Personal God.
    For God so loved the world, that He GAVE His only begotten Son…….
    He did that for me.
    So He is not evil.. evil people and gods exist, but not the same.
    Believe me when I tell you! He is good.

    • Einstein disagreed with you about the whole “personal God” thing, you know. He did believe in some sort of God, but not a personal God. I have a sense that Einstein may have been smarter than you.

      • David permalink

        There is a difference in knowledge and wisdom. He could have one without the other.

        • Chris permalink

          You have not shown any evidence of either. You have given no legitimate reason why the hospital administration (which is not Congress) should not uphold their regulations to protect the health of their patients.

    • Chris permalink

      Answer the question, why does your god not like you preventing an illness with a vaccine?

  28. David permalink

    Chris, I do admit that God let’s us make our own decisions. They can be right or wrong. But we are free people, not being forced to believe.
    What He does is give us the gift to believe. Faith is a gift. It doesn’t originate with me and my free will or intelligence. It is purely a FREE gift from God.
    As for the vaccines, He will give me enough warning if something is bad. He will encourage me to do what is right. As far as these nurses, I do not know their story, but I do know mine.
    I became very sick after taking the mmr shot in 1991. My medical doctor said he could not help me, so I went to the holistic doctor and I was well in less than 6 months. Good food, vitamin C, detox from chemicals of which I am allergic to most.
    He helped me get better and He used people to do that. Not all people are bad, my holistic doctor was a family practice doctor for 27 years before he switched over. He read all those studies too. Everyone must make up their own minds, its a free country. Tht is the problem, you should not force people against their will to do what they think is wrong. God doesn’t do that to us, we shouldn’t do it to each other.

    • Chris permalink

      “But we are free people, not being forced to believe.”

      But your god (or more accurately you) wants the rest of the world to believe like you, and deny the free will to the hospital administration to protect their patients from infectious diseases.

      Tht is the problem, you should not force people against their will to do what they think is wrong.”

      You are trying to force the reduction of patient safety. That is wrong.

      The hospital should not have to compromise patient health on your beliefs. Just like they should not compromise patient health for someone who wants to always be on a drug induced high, or chain smoke. If you don’t like it, then use your free will to find another job.

    • Shaliza permalink

      Now you’re just spamming the boards with your religious propaganda, David. Chris is absolutely right in that you’re forcing us to look up to your god while accusing us of being brainwashed by Big Pharma and the like. Pot, kettle, anyone?

      Move along, please.

  29. David permalink

    And Chris,there is no evidence showing that taking a vaccine prevents disease. I know many nurses who took the flu shot and still got the flu. Should they be fired for getting the flu? No. Then why fire a healthcare worker who doesnt even have the flu? And who may not get it? But if they do stay home from work?
    Two people make a decision.
    One loses their job.
    Again two divergent opinions.
    But the only ones getting hurt are those who lose their jobs or have to drop out of school or quit volunteering at the gift shop
    My head nurse took the the flu shot. She had flu and stayed out of work for weeks she had a bunch of foster kids in her home. No telling how long she had the virus before finding out. Kids were exposed. Should she get fired?
    It becomes ridiculous after awhile.

    • Chris permalink

      Actually there is plenty of evidence that the flu vaccine works. Some of it is included in this article:

      And yes, they should be fired for going against hospital safety polices. Just like someone where I used to work was fired for using company computer resources for personal business, another for chronic tardiness and finally the person who came to work with a handgun while after shooting up with heroine.

      By the way, how come you, a nurse, does not understand you are infectious before you have symptoms? You can be exposing sick patients to a virus without even knowing it. Perhaps you would change your mind if a patient sued you because you gave them flu the day before you decided to stay home sick.

  30. David permalink

    No, I am not spamming the board with my religious beliefs.
    And I certainly would not force anyone to believe the way I do.
    It’s freedom of religion. You are free to believe any god you want to, it’s America.

    I just got through explaining to you that not everyone will believe, nor do I think anything I say or do will make them believe. It’s a gift from God. Your statements are inaccurate. I have no way of knowing if you believe or do not believe in my God.
    But I am certainly going to take up for Him when you defame His name and personality and
    Point you to His Word.
    Thanks for the stimulating conversation
    Love you guys!

  31. lilady permalink

    Jeez, you hooked a live one, Chris.

    David still hasn’t provided any scientific information for his *theory* that SIDS is caused by kids getting too many vaccines, yet he asks us to believe that he is an educated nurse…with a “degree” no less.

    Where’s the citation about an entire classroom getting chicken pox, after receiving the varicella vaccine…that David *observed*? It certainly should have been reported in the MMWR.

    David stated…”I became very sick after taking the mmr shot in 1991. My medical doctor said he could not help me, so I went to the holistic doctor and I was well in less than 6 months. Good food, vitamin C, detox from chemicals of which I am allergic to most.”

    I’m calling b.s. on that statement. How could he even get into a clinical area during nurse’s training, and been employed as a nurse at the start of your nursing *career* in 1980, if he was not fully immunized against MMR?

    Not only is David spamming comments with his religious postings, he is spamming comments with his imaginary nursing career experiences. Time to put this one out of his misery.

    • All we need is a little AIDS denialism and a banning of David will be in order.

      • Shaliza permalink

        LOL! I think David was totally giving dear Bryan the Poltergeist a run for his money, with his recent flood of posts here. :D

        Religious fanatics, no matter what their faith, really irritate me. I think I just about lost it, when more than one pious Catholic told me I had a one-way ticket to hell, for reading (and enjoying), Harry Potter.

        • If that’s the case, I have my parking spot reserved.

          At least I’ll beat the crowds.

  32. kategladstone permalink

    A modest proposal: anyone who works for healthcare and who refuses vaccination should have a notation made on his/her record which will state that, in the event of a contagious and vaccinable disease which s/he catches, the hospital and other healthcare providers will be held harmless if they choose to refuse all care (except isolation) to such persons and to their dependent family members. (Nobody would b legally REQUIRED to refuse care — but anyone refusing care, in such circumstances, would be held harmless.)

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